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Ask Andrina


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How to deal with understating Income etc
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Hi -

I had a client to whom recently terminated my services without the contracted notice (this now is a separate issue) as I had uncovered years of undeclared income, which in itself means underpaid VAT, less profit/corp tax and therefore didling his mum (Company Secretary aged 84) out of her profit share and dividends. I also believe firmly that the accountants are more than aware of the situation as there answers to my questions where just off the scale! He used my mums sudden death as an excuse to terminate my services!

He is telling the staff not to ring certain things through the till, and is amending the daily income when large bills have been paid by cash. I have witnessed all this and when I approached him, he said it didn't happen. I then caught him amending a record and he told me that he would put the income and record back into the business in a months time (he was going on holiday), when the time approached I asked him for the record and cash and he refused. I asked twice more and he still refused.

Please can you advise the course of action as I am worried that he would counter sue for something he could muster up (he is that sort of person), should I report him.

Thank you          



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Leger


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Ask Andrina wrote:

Hi -

I had a client to whom recently terminated my services without the contracted notice (this now is a separate issue) as I had uncovered years of undeclared income, which in itself means underpaid VAT, less profit/corp tax 

How do you know?  Have you seen evidence for this?

and therefore didling his mum (Company Secretary aged 84) out of her profit share and dividends.

Is his mum a shareholder?

I also believe firmly that the accountants are more than aware of the situation as there answers to my questions where just off the scale! He used my mums sudden death as an excuse to terminate my services!

Pardon?  Are you suggesting that the accountants are in on this suspected tax evasion?

He is telling the staff not to ring certain things through the till, and is amending the daily income when large bills have been paid by cash. I have witnessed all this and when I approached him, he said it didn't happen. I then caught him amending a record and he told me that he would put the income and record back into the business in a months time (he was going on holiday), when the time approached I asked him for the record and cash and he refused. I asked twice more and he still refused.

I would have terminated my services there and then.


Please can you advise the course of action as I am worried that he would counter sue for something he could muster up (he is that sort of person), should I report him.

Providing you have the facts to support the case you've outlined, you have no choice but to report.  You mustn't let him know that you have done.     

 



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John 

 

 

 Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Ask Andrina


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Leger wrote:
Ask Andrina wrote:

Hi -

I had a client to whom recently terminated my services without the contracted notice (this now is a separate issue) as I had uncovered years of undeclared income, which in itself means underpaid VAT, less profit/corp tax 

How do you know?  Have you seen evidence for this?Yes, I have already stated I have!

and therefore didling his mum (Company Secretary aged 84) out of her profit share and dividends.

Is his mum a shareholder?

Yes, the majority

I also believe firmly that the accountants are more than aware of the situation as there answers to my questions where just off the scale! He used my mums sudden death as an excuse to terminate my services!

Pardon?  Are you suggesting that the accountants are in on this suspected tax evasion?

I am indeed

He is telling the staff not to ring certain things through the till, and is amending the daily income when large bills have been paid by cash. I have witnessed all this and when I approached him, he said it didn't happen. I then caught him amending a record and he told me that he would put the income and record back into the business in a months time (he was going on holiday), when the time approached I asked him for the record and cash and he refused. I asked twice more and he still refused.

I would have terminated my services there and then.

I was caught quite off guard as I have never been in the situation and wanted him to put it right. Unfortunately my healthy mum died suddenly and he know thinks that that is his get out clause


Please can you advise the course of action as I am worried that he would counter sue for something he could muster up (he is that sort of person), should I report him.

Providing you have the facts to support the case you've outlined, you have no choice but to report.  You mustn't let him know that you have done.     

I know I shouldn't tell anyone that I have reported him (when I do), its just that I do not know what he will try and do for re-course - he is not a nice person either

 

Apologies, if I am reading your tone incorrectly, only you sound very abrupt!

 

 



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Leger


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Hi Andrina (sorry I should have started my last post that way)

 

How did you manage to uncover years of under declared income, that's a hard thing to do without going through the accounts in detail year by year.  That's why I asked the question.  Catching someone in the act falsifying records does not automatically compute that they have done it for years.

I asked about his mum because being a company secretary does not always mean they are a shareholder.

My sincerest condolences for your loss, in what way did this become an excuse for him terminating your services? I'm struggling to see how this could be his get out clause.  If he wanted rid of you all he had to do was terminate your services.

Do you have evidence that the accountants are complicent in the fraud?  If you have then I suggest you report it to their governing body.  

I have seen your post before, but I'm struggling to remember where. I did do a search on aweb and ukbusinessforums before making my reply, but it drew a blank. 

Ignore my tone, I'm a friendly guy really



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John 

 

 

 Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Cheshire


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Ask Andrina wrote:
Leger wrote:

Apologies, if I am reading your tone incorrectly, only you sound very abrupt!

 

 

Hi Andrina

only you sound very abrupt!   This just emphasises how easily it is that forum posts, texts and even emails can be mis-read.  As I read your response  'already stated I have!' as potentially being abrupt.  Such a bug bear of the medium we use these days Im afraid. I know some of my responses have been mis-read in this way in the past and Ive done the same with others.  But one thing I can say about John is he is ultra polite, never abrupt and yep as he says a friendly guy.  Just thought I would clarify that and hope that helps.

John has some very valid questions in his second post - ones I pondered on myself.   Would be keen to understand the answers to those questions.  Remember though that you have a duty to report if you 'suspect' rather than having to provide the proof.  Also bear in mind that from what you say - you are not the only one to have knowledge of any wrongdoing (if that is the case of serial falsifying records)  - the staff know, so how would he know who has reported him?

 



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 Joanne 

Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017 

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.

You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Cheshire


Master Book-keeper

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Leger wrote:

 

I have seen your post before, but I'm struggling to remember where. I did do a search on aweb and ukbusinessforums before making my reply, but it drew a blank. 

 

Hi John

Andrina posted the same question on here - was on the back on an old post, so looks like she has posted again, rather than bumping as she had no replies.  (Its on page 2 of 'recents')



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 Joanne 

Winner of Bookkeeper of the Year 2015, 2016 & 2017 

Thoughts are my own/not to be regarded as official advice,which should be sought from a suitably qualified Accountant.

You should check out answers with reference to the legal position
Leger


Master Book-keeper

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Why thank you kind Miss!   Good point about the fact other people will be in the know, and maybe that will ease Andrina's worries over reporting the matter.

Lol, I never thought of looking here for the post, I just knew I'd seen it before.  Not sure why I didn't reply to that one tbh.

 



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John 

 

 

 Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
Ask Andrina


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Hi Joanne

Yes Indeed emails can be misconstrued - If you noted I did apologise first just in case I was reading it wrong for that very reason

In respect of me posting my topic twice - I did it first on an old post, again I stated that it may not have been in the right place to do it...so I started a new topic - I did this because I don't know how to 'bump', it wasn't done purely because I didn't get a response. Let me know how to 'bump' for future please to save duplicating. Thanks

Hi John

I apologise again and thank you for your response.

Please see my responses separately

 

Many thanks

 



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Ask Andrina


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Hi John

Hi Andrina (sorry I should have started my last post that way)



How did you manage to uncover years of under declared income, that's a hard thing to do without going through the accounts in detail year by year. That's why I asked the question. Catching someone in the act falsifying records does not automatically compute that they have done it for years.

I have been through the accounts, paperwork, stock takes - food & bar readings etc etc - and slowly uncovered the deficits - just as I was getting very sure of suspicion/facts my mum died -

I asked about his mum because being a company secretary does not always mean they are a shareholder.

My sincerest condolences for your loss, in what way did this become an excuse for him terminating your services? I'm struggling to see how this could be his get out clause. If he wanted rid of you all he had to do was terminate your services. you have to know the beast - He wouldn't just terminate without a get out clause he is quite a weasel. I could give you other examples to back this up, but they are irrelevant to this post. He was aware I had uncovered things and he didn't know how to deal with it, my mums sudden death gave him the excuse to get the accountant back in. It is also what he states in his letter - that again will give you the depth of the person (well I hope it does).

Do you have evidence that the accountants are complicent in the fraud? If you have then I suggest you report it to their governing body. Yes

I have seen your post before, but I'm struggling to remember where. I did do a search on aweb and ukbusinessforums before making my reply, but it drew a blank. - Answered this separately. wink

Thanks all for your help



-- Edited by Ask Andrina on Friday 4th of December 2015 04:50:49 PM

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Leger


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Hi Andrina

Absolutely no need for the apology.  In hindsight my reply did appear terse, but unintentionally so

You have established that the Director has milked funds from his business and as such, you should report this.  It is unlikely that any action would be taken immediately so it isn't definite that he will suspect you, and as Joanne pointed out, it could easily be a staff member. I will be honest though and say it's a possibility. If so, would the consequences put you in any danger or is it the possibility of being sued, as mentioned in your first post?  Obviously I don't know the ins and outs but I would be surprised if that had a successful outcome.  If you are worried that it could put you in danger I can't answer that, because I don't have the experience to advise you, but I'm sure one of the more experienced members could help.

As I previously said, a report to the accountants governg body is in order too.

 

 

.



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John 

 

 

 Any advice given is for general guidance and professional advice should be sought applicable to your circumstances.
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