Training course fees - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Training course fees

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Does your existing qualification require you to complete CPD in order to continue to practice under their banner? In which case there's your answer. Study accountancy as CPD for you existing qualification which is required for you business therefore its claimable against tax where learning something new would not be.

Which route are you thinking of taking? If ACCA remember that regulation 8 will stop you from offering anything more than bookkeeping to trial balance, VAT and Payroll no matter who else you are qualified with.

AAT is a good option and you can still watch the Opentuition ACCA lectures in order to pass AAT exams.

Hope that helps,

Shaun.

RobH · Expert

Hi Jo,
The general rule I seem to recall is that as a self employed you cannot claim training fees if it is for new skills but you could if it was to enhance/keep up to date existing skills, hence Shaun's advice about CPD. If you were an employee (therefore had a company) then relevant training (even for new skills) would be tax deductible.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

I'm not so sure Rob.

If its a small owner managed business don't HMRC get stroppy over the owner deriving personal benefit from training unless it is necessary as part of the job (i.e. for CPD).

Basically treating small incorporated entities the same as self employed for this scenario.

Of course, the example that's normally bandied around is an MBA which in some ways is not the same but in others the issue with the MBA is that it gives letters which are a personal benefit (i.e. according to the dodgy internet universities that keep ending up cluttering up my spam filter super models start throwing themselves at you) rather than purely for the business.

Similarly, a professional qualification would result in letters therefore would not the same (twisted) logic of HMRC apply?

At the minute I'm sticking with my original line of thinking that it would need to be classified as CPD for it to be allowable even for an incorporated entity.

Would be very happy to be convinced that I'm wrong though.

RobH · Expert

I think further training in the field of the business would be ok Shaun though I take your point about the MBA. If it wasn't allowable then it could still be claimed and reported as a p11d benefit but I still think it would be fine, but perhaps we need to research this a bit more before Jo takes any action.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Rob,

I've been trying to find an answer amongst the posts from those clever people over on Aweb and these seem the best two :

www.accountingweb.co.uk/topic/business/tax-feature-tax-deductions-training-courses-part-1-nichola-ross-martin

www.accountingweb.co.uk/topic/business/tax-feature-tax-deductions-training-courses-part-2-employees-and-nigh-impossible-clai

Actually, best one as its parts one and two of the same thing.

Part one seems more applicable to the scenario.

Unfortunately they genrated a disappointingly absent discussion around the subject.

To a certain extent I think that the call on this may just be down to which side of the bed the tax inspector got out of that morning.

Don't you just love that on one hand the government want us to be a mobile skilled workforce but on the other they punish us for attempting it.

Sure that Dave, Brian and Nick would all back me in a campaign for training costs to be totally allowable expenses no matter what it is you're learning .

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Not quite sure what to say about this one. Thanks guys for the info and links of course. Other than than Im confused and initial thoughts are that Im certainly not doing all these blitherin' exams for my own benefit. Well ok - if I pass I might get more business and earn more money but then HMRC will most definately benefit (loads) on the amount of tax I will be paying. It really gets my goat that there is any kind of debate about claiming for such qualifications that are crucial to doing certain roles, when there is so much money wasted on pathetic/not worth the paper they are written on so called qualifications. If you are thick and totally incapable at getting a job, because you dossed about at school then the government will throw money at you to get NVQs in getting out of bed, but when you have worked all your life, contributed and now want to still work hard by holding down a job and doing more exams then you can just sod off!!! Aggghh. Sorry boys - guess Im just a tad annoyed and wondering why Im bothering.

Shame about the lack of discussion around those articles - I might have to post on there too and see what a hornets nest I open up!

Or maybe I will just go and eat cake.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Cake!!!!

NickCraggs · Guru

Hi,

I am taking the ATT and i am claiming it all. I will argue with HMRC until i am blue in the face, that this isnt something that will teach me anything new. Theoretically I have covered it all before under ACA (as to if i remember it all is a different matter), so I am going to insist should Mr/Mrs HMRC that this is CPD even though it is another qualification with another awarding body.

Should i ever be mental enough to do CTA, i might have to agree that this is not allowable.

Have a good weekend everyone.

Nick

RobH · Expert

I think the claim first argue later isn't a bad idea but probably only for a company. I did ATT when I was a sole trader so I didn't claim it but certainly if I were to venture onto CTA then I would claim it on the grounds that it covers the same ground as ATT but in much greater depth and this is often the case with CPD, in fact if I were to study for CTA I would put all this down as CPD anyway.
I think Shaun you may be right about it depending on the mood of the inspector but I think Jo, if you can put up a good argument for the qualification being a benefit to the company (and not you as an individual, afterall you are hardly likely to take your qualification and find a better job elsewhere!) and it is the sort of training you would also give to other relevant staff (ex over worked chefs come to mind!) then I think you may have good grounds to claim.

FoxAccountancyServices · Expert

I am going to do ATT, to ensure my existing tax knowledge is up to date, and to add on to it. I totally intend on putting it through! I would expect, Jo, that doing AAT would just be solidifying your existing knowledge, and that the designation letters would make you more attractive to potential clients. Its not like you are doing a totally unrelated qualification on something you don't already have experience of? Now, if you were going to learn to be a gin maker...... I'd say I'll be round in ten minutes to join you!

-- Edited by FoxAccountancyServices on Friday 22nd of August 2014 09:25:59 AM

Sharon Eyre · Senior Member

Nick how are you finding ATT- Thats my next project on training

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Im very good at arguing thats for sure!! Used to be VERY good at putting forward very reasoned arguments too from my days in corporate finance (even though I say so myself, lol). Its like being back in that arena with all the three letter acronyms flying about - love it! Reckon I might also call on you boys if I a have an issue with an inspector and would of course return the favour! Im still debating if all the extra study is going to be my thing, especially after all the busy months Ive had - finding the time will be fun, not, but i do like a challenge! Mind you having two of us in the family covering potentially the same areas of study could make it easier.

As Nick says ''CPD even though it is another qualification with another awarding body'' - isnt there also the argument that the 'other awarding body' provide better training in a specific area which is why you switched. (Before anyone jumps on this Im talking about an argument rather than factually stating any views on awarding bodies).

Personally I know I need to do more digging to find out what is involved in each direction, but the CTA side I reckon is probably not for me. (Chefing is looking like a good career move!)

NickCraggs · Guru

Hi Sharon,

i really like it, i did question why i was doing it, especially at the weekend. However, it was good to get back up to exam standard. I think that it is the right level of tax knowledge for small to medium sized companies.

I dont think the AAT goes into depth enough and some of the things i learnt under ICAEW are completely irrelevant for someone living in Scarborough!

I really recommend it, the only problem is the nigh on 3 months wait for the results, but as a syllabus it is excellent.

Nick

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Gin still in the garage - sush. Setting up my own business cake making as dont need any training. Sending son back to chefing - nooo idea what he was moaning about....watch this space for his 1st Michelin star and being on the telly thanking his Mum.

Having read this Im surprised.... I thought you guys all had the AAT already!!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

NickCraggs wrote:
Hi Sharon,
i really like it, i did question why i was doing it, especially at the weekend. However, it was good to get back up to exam standard. I think that it is the right level of tax knowledge for small to medium sized companies.
I dont think the AAT goes into depth enough and some of the things i learnt under ICAEW are completely irrelevant for someone living in Scarborough!
I really recommend it, the only problem is the nigh on 3 months wait for the results, but as a syllabus it is excellent.
Nick

What level are you at Nick and how long have you spent on it so far (I know everyone learns at a different pace, but its still good to hear views!)

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Jo,

they're talking ATT not AAT.

I'm actually pondering that one myself as CPD.

NickCraggs · Guru

hi,

i have passed personal tax, and i think i might do corporate tax this november, even though i get an exemption from it. I don;t think i can bring myself to face ethics and law, even though i suppose I should. I am only doing this for to keep my tax up to date so I am tempted just to do the tax exams and leave the E-learning but this seems a bit of a waste.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Nick,

but you are doing ATT where you work offering ATT as a course so to me there is a 100% clear arguement that such would be allowable expenditure.

Also every case where someone in practice does ATT as CPD would be allowable.

p.s. my answer was to your earlier posts, not the one just posted

-- Edited by Shamus on Friday 22nd of August 2014 11:04:15 AM

Sharon Eyre · Senior Member

Nick
I agree AAT doesnt go in depth enough -I keep looking at it then shelving it then re visiting- I am currently waiting for some exam results coming through so depending on the results might just re visit again!!

It is a long time to wait for results isnt it- I thought AAT was bad enough at 6 weeks!

NickCraggs · Guru

Shamus wrote:
Hi Nick,

but you are doing ATT where you work offering ATT as a course so to me there is a 100% clear arguement that such would be allowable expenditure.

-- Edited by Shamus on Friday 22nd of August 2014 11:04:15 AM

To be honest I wouldnt hold your breath for ATT. I just took it as the books were kicking around and i just had to pay the exam fees.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Thats a shame Nick,

I think that Rose is shooting herself in the foot in the substantial CPD market there.

Then again, not for me to tell anyone how to run their training company...

But while I'm on the subject, Brian and Dave....... lol, just joshin fella's.

NickCraggs · Guru

It is on the cards but the plan (at the moment) is for the May 2015 sitting. The deadline for the November 2014 sitting is the end of the month and that isn't going to happen.

I think it is a great follow on from AAT, and great CPD.

RobH · Expert

It's such a shame that so few places offer ATT outside of the BPP's revision courses for huge money. When I did it (last century!!) I attended the local college ACCA tax classes which was a help but a proper structured course would have been better...having said that I scraped through!

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Thanks guys for all your comments. Im still pondering, have been since 2012 so I guess I need to just dive in and do!