Is discrimination ever right? - The Book-keepers Forum (UK)

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Is discrimination ever right?

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Kris,

I've seen too many situations where the wrong person has been hired / promoted in order to meet quota's / published company policies.

I've also seen candidates wielding the power of minority to claim discrimination. Basically using legislation intended to protect as a sword rather than a shield.

This group that you joined sounds as though they are taking shelter behind the idea that they are an unfairly treated minority... I need to avoid here the term that they should grow a pair but thats the general message. They should come visit sites such as this where everyone is equal regardless of race, religion, sex or colour. Maybe then they would realise that it's not society that is out to get them but rather they are creating the problem for themselves rather than being part of the solution.

Generally message is that nobody ever won a battle by not inviting the other side to it.

Now go get your money back matey.... Actually, I assume that you paid by credit card so can't you just get your card company to take the money back off them?

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Yes, the money is incidental. I think I paid £10.99 in total. It's more how I was treated that has annoyed me, the fact that no one even has the common decency to speak to me about it.

While I believe what they are doing is fundamentally illegal, I do need to say that the owner has found a niche and is milking it for all it's worth. Having said that there is a difference between niche marketing, and not serving anyone outwith that niche.

Kris

RobH · Expert

I have suggested on a few occasions to ladies I know that they should come networking but often they find it too intimidating, often it can be intimidating for me but I think an all women group is no bad thing if it helps those less bold girls to get out there. I don't think this about feminism, I just think it's about a group of women who find it easier to be amongst other women. Is it discrimination, may be it is under the strict definition of the term but is it trying to put one group at a particular disadvantage or just trying to encourage another group?

Don Tax · Expert

My first thought was about my Grandad's men's club in the 80s and 90s reluctantly had to accept women for legal reasons. Being twenty odd years ago it seems retrograde that women-only groups are still being founded. Robh's comment is quite helpful and intimidation had not occurred to me.

It doesn't really alter the fact that it's sexist and if my Grandad's snooker and darts club could move forward then really we shouldn't be encouraging one law for men and one for women. Either single sex societies and forums are ok or they're not.

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

I was thinking the same thing, wondering if it would be the same with an all male club.

I was once told that if you're not sure if something is discriminatory replace it with black or Jew. If it makes you cringe it's probably not right.

Kris

RobH · Expert

I think you are being over sensitive, a group of women feel happier meeting with eachother, why would you even want to be a part of a group that is not aimed at you and why would you be offended when she has quite nicely explained the situation. To be honest she has probably saved you some embarrassment by letting you know. As a Spurs fan I would not feel overly comfortable going to a pub full of red and white shirts, so I don't go!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Morning Rob,

But is allowing people to hide from what they fear doing them any good?

My view is that creating a group to shelter members from what they fear helps only the people making money from that group, in the long run it doesn't help its members at all.

Think about it, even in a mixed group members start by identifying with those they feel have similar views / background and then grow. If a site only has people who are basically the same then the members have no scope for personal growth.

Even in networking groups you will see new members latch on to someone that they know or where there is commonality almost as a comfort blanket and then they grow in confidence at their own pace from there.

Giving them opportunity to shelter from such exposure actually prevents them from fulfilling their potential.

Just my view on things but then I am the sort whose approach to getting a square peg in a round hole is just to use a bigger hammer

all the best,

Shaun.

p.s. sound advice Kris.

RobH · Expert

Hi Shaun,

that may or may not be true (and I can't say for sure that is the reason for these groups) but I just don't see the problem. I would bet a pound to a penny that you, Kris and Don (sorry is it Ian, can't remember!) as well as myself would all be up in arms about political correctness gone mad but this seems to be a similar situation, a bunch of blokes discussing whether it is in the best interests/ ethically sound for these women to exclude men from their group. Why shouldn't they if they want to, what do we have to fear? And (for once) I don't think that is sound advice from Kris (who I genuinely have the utmost respect for), I think likening this to the abhorrence of racism is actually quite insulting.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Rob,

We're in agreement over our anti political correctness gone mad stance but I'm not seeing things from the same perspective over women only groups.

It would not be allowed for a group of blokes to exclude women from a group (nor do I think that anyone would suggest such).

Why then is it acceptible to have women maintaining the misconception of being an oppressed marginalised minority only able to be taken seriously by other women.

Did the people organising these groups just come out of a cyrogenic sleep which they started in the 1950's.

Yes there are differences in the approaches of men and women but nothing so drastic to result in a segregation of the sexes into our own groups.

My stance is nothing to do with fear. Its a simple whats right as opposed to whats not. And my view is that women only groups are fine on MTV but not when it comes to business.

kind regards,

Shaun.

p.s. Don Tax is Tim.

Don Tax · Expert

As I say, Robh, it's quite helpful to realise that I might intimidate a woman unintentionally. I might also intimidate a man - you had to shout to get heard in our house but that was nothing compared to my Dad's where they had seven children and six dining chairs.

My take on this is not so much sensitivity as questioning if we've been heading legally since 1975 in one direction we don't want to encourage any gender, age, race etc group to head the other way. I mean there are work discrimination cases all the time, but it looks as if my Grandad and his cronies ditched their chauvinism for nothing.

I suppose they would be digging a hole for themselves if they automatically asked new members which sex they belonged to. It does sound difficult to comply with the law. I suspect also, that the silence facing Kris is for a similar reason.

RobH · Expert

I think you will probably get a lot of support from the female members of this forum Shaun, but apart from your MTV comment (ha!) I can't agree that we should prevent an all female group from meeting, perhaps they should allow men to come if we really are getting upset about it but I doubt it would curry any favours with membership. I think the Women's Institution allow male speakers (I seem to recall Tony Blair getting a rough ride from them once) but I'm guessing it is a female only group.

I stand by my earlier question that unless the exclusion is because they wish to disadvantage that group (rather than encourage more women into business) then is it really discrimination? If I go to BNI, am I discriminating against someone who goes to BOB club because my referrals will not go in that direction?

I accept Shaun that your stance is nothing to do with fear but stating that it is from a position of what is right as opposed to what is not is touching on the arrogant and somewhat beneath you, I don't think you have ever justified your arguments with such a statement even when you are trying to controversial!

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

This would all be fine Rob, if it were not for the fact it has been made illegal by the Equality Act 2010. We may not agree with the law, but surely we must abide by it? Incidental, I see your point about thinking race is different from gender, but it's the same act that makes that illegal.

My reason for joining was simply that I was told it had some great marketing advice. I'm now wondering if that advice was how not to market your business.

Kris

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

RobH wrote:
If I go to BNI, am I discriminating against someone who goes to BOB club because my referrals will not go in that direction?

No, because you are not preventing the members of the BOB club from joining the BNI too. Certainly not because of something they can do nothing to change.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

Hi Rob,

You'll have to forgive me being dumb here but I'm not seeing the issue with the sentence "What is right as opposed to what is not".

Its born out of Edmund Burkes quote (There are over a hundred published variants of it) "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".

As if I would ever be controversial, tut. wink

RobH · Expert

Yes sometimes the law is an ass and I can't really comment on the Equality Act 2010 but I doubt that it was drawn up because it thinks the Women's Institution is a heinous organisation and should be outlawed. Sometimes the spirit of the law needs interpreting and the written words challenging, this way law becomes clearer and hopefully more just.

I understand your reason for joining, I'm just struggling with why it bothers you so much I guess. You are one of the best supporters of new business and I would have thought that you would have actively encouraged any group that helped women to get into business even if that group decided, for whatever reason, they wanted it to be an all female meeting.

I agree my BNI example wasn't great!

Anyway I shall now get on with some work and leave this alone!

RobH · Expert

Hi Shaun,

The inference is that you have decided what is right and what is wrong, had you referenced Edmund Burke at that point then the inference would have been different......you would never play devil's advocate Shaun!

RobH · Expert

Hi Tim,

I see the point you are making (And Kris and Shaun) but I think this whole 'it contravenes the Equality Act 2010/Discrimination Act 1975' or whatever is rather getting things out of perspective. Those laws were necessarily put in place to counter rather unsavoury practices and cultures. I cannot see how a bunch of ladies meeting together without men is in any way disadvantaging those men in anything other than the most trivial aspect. I am very happy that they have found a medium in which they wish to do business.

RobH · Expert

Shamus wrote:

Its born out of Edmund Burkes quote (There are over a hundred published variants of it) "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".

Edmund Burke seems to be excluding women here...how ironic!

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

RobH wrote:
Hi Shaun,

The inference is that you have decided what is right and what is wrong, had you referenced Edmund Burke at that point then the inference would have been different......you would never play devil's advocate Shaun!

Guilty as charged.

Within the legal and moral framework of our society don't we all decide to our own code what is right and wrong?

Thats the whole principle of Kohlbergs thesis on moral development.

And yes, the irony of the quote was not lost on me. I scanned the hundred or so variants and all of them used the term men rather that a more inclusive term.

However... we refer to the human race as Mankind which is inclusive so could not one equally argue the principle of the quote rather than the actual wording?

Devils advocate... To take a position opposit to what one believes to be true... You're right Rob, I would be no good at that at all. I do change my mind if I can see the other persons arguement is stronger than my own belief but I do have to believe what I am argueing at that time.

If I didn't then I would not be prepared for the counter arguments.

Love the way that you said that you had to do some work now.... Four posts back, lol. (been there with this site soooo many times).

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Anyway. I can report that the group had a rethink and I'm now a member again.

RobH · Expert

...as long as you wear a dress!

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Thats everyday wear Rob

Don Tax · Expert

Y'know, after a couple of hours doing some work, I've reflected that I am, after all, slightly irritated by the very idea of a 'Womens Only' marketing group. Yes in a trivial way, but it could be argued that being on national television, 'Love Thy Neighbour' or Bernard Manning were trivial in 1975. We're supposed to be way beyond this sort of intolerance now.

If someone is being intimidating, then a temporary sanction should be the first resort whilst referring him to a particular rule of membership.

In any case, marketing isn't something I associate with being a shrinking violet. I suspect this is rather playing on prejudices and if it is a business might be challenged legally.

TIm

LOL just read Kris's post of 14:24. I'm pleased they've seen reason and am sure they'll be glad they let you stay.

-- Edited by Don Tax on Monday 14th of July 2014 04:14:08 PM

Cheshire · Master Book-keeper

Ive not read all of this (sorry - time constraints blur blur), but as a woman I would like to say....

.....discrimination is discrimination and therefore wrong. If there is a so called womens only 'whatever' group - they cannot LEGALLY refuse to allow a man to join, just as the opposite would not be allowed. I say - report them!!!!! But in reality have you the time to follow that up?? Cant see any benefits in women only marketing and I dont know nor care who they are but I wont be joining such a small minded group of people! Reckon you should ask for your money back anyway - I think they've only seen reason to avoid any trouble. If it were free I would encourage all of you males on here to join - just to see what would happen, lol.

2nd rant of the day over!

lainy · Veteran Member

Kris I was going to say have you had your money back. Did you get your moneys worth before you were removed? And is it worth joining?

Have a great weekend

kjmcculloch83 · Expert

Elaine, we managed to get it all sorted.

RedTapeDoc · Member

Discrimination is right

The Equality Act 2010 Act affects how a club may behave towards members. In law, an association with a genuine selection process would not be contravening the legislation by allowing membership based on a single sex.

Shamus · Forum Moderator & Expert

darn it Andy,

that means that the womens institute can legitimately keep me away from their cakes... ... denied...